A Dialogue on the Attainment of Fruition

A: Realizing the fruit and awakening to the true mind only requires the mind consciousness to realize it; it is not necessary for the manas to realize it at the same time. 

B: After the mind consciousness realizes the fruit and becomes a sage, when one falls asleep at night, is one a sage or an ordinary being at that time? 

A: The eighth consciousness retains dharma seeds, so upon waking, one is naturally still a stream-enterer. 

B: If this person has not yet woken up, is he an ordinary being or one who has realized the fruit? And if this person remains in a deep coma and never wakes up? 

A: The eighth consciousness retains dharma seeds. 

B: There are many dharma seeds in the eighth consciousness, and there are also extremely numerous and heavy karmic seeds of hell. Which karmic seed determines his identity? 

A: The heavy karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit takes precedence. 

B: Although the mind consciousness has realized the fruit, the manas has not. The manas's afflictions of greed, hatred, delusion, and ignorance are also major karmic seeds. Are the manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion leading to hell not stronger than the karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit? 

A: ········· 

B: At the time of conception, the mind consciousness has ceased, and it is the manas and the eighth consciousness that enter the womb. At this point, does one enter the womb with the identity of having realized the fruit through the mind consciousness, or with the identity of an ordinary being through the manas? 

A: One enters the womb according to the karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness. 

B: The manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion in the eighth consciousness are certainly stronger than the mind consciousness's karmic seeds. The dharmas cultivated by the mind consciousness will not ripen because they are too light, whereas the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are extremely heavy. Where will one be reborn at this time? 

A: The karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit is heavy. 

B: The mind consciousness's realization of the fruit corresponds to the mind consciousness, not to the manas; the wisdom of realizing the fruit is manifested by the mind consciousness, while the manas's afflictive karmic seeds correspond to the manas, and the afflictive karmic actions are manifested by the manas. At this point the mind consciousness has ceased and can no longer manifest the wisdom of realizing the fruit, yet the manas will manifest the afflictive karmic actions of greed, hatred, delusion, and self-view. Where will one be reborn at this time? 

A: ········ 

B: If the cultivation of the Buddha's teachings is all done by the mind consciousness, how much effect can the mind consciousness still have in the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava)? In the antarā-bhava, is the manas's defiled karmic force stronger, or the force of what the mind consciousness has cultivated? 

A: Rebirth does not necessarily always pass through the antarā-bhava; for example, going directly to hell or ascending to heaven. 

B: Rebirth without passing through the antarā-bhava occurs only when one has created major wholesome or unwholesome karma before death. Is the wholesome karma of sentient beings realizing the fruit through the mind consciousness greater, or the defiled karma of greed, hatred, and delusion of the manas that has not realized the fruit? Does realizing the fruit even allow one to ascend to heaven directly without an antarā-bhava? 

A: Cultivating the true Dharma is ultimately useful. 

B: Although one has cultivated the true Dharma, if greed, hatred, and delusion afflictions are complete and not severed in the slightest, and all the afflictive karmic seeds remain in the eighth consciousness, then when the afflictive karma manifests in the antarā-bhava, does one enter the womb following the afflictive karma, or following the cultivated dharmas? 

A: One enters the womb following the wholesome karma of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit. 

B: But the manas, after all, has not realized the fruit; the greed, hatred, and delusion before death were extremely heavy, and the defiled karmic seeds outweigh the karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit. At this point, shouldn't the strong karma lead first, so that one enters the womb with the identity of a defiled ordinary being through the manas? 

A: ······· 

B: If one takes for granted that as long as one has studied the Buddha's teachings, karmic seeds are stored and one will be reborn in wholesome destinies and depart from the three evil destinies, this is an extremely biased way of thinking. Although everyone has cultivated wholesome dharmas, the unwholesome karma in the eighth consciousness is still very heavy, and the wholesome dharmas are insufficient to counteract the unwholesome dharmas; in the end, the powerful unwholesome dharmas still occupy the dominant position. How can this avoid the retribution of the three evil destinies and achieve rebirth in wholesome destinies?