A Dialogue on the Attainment of the Fruit

A: Attaining the fruition stage and realizing the mind only requires the consciousness to attain it; it does not necessitate the simultaneous attainment by the manas.

B: After the consciousness attains the fruition stage and becomes a sage, when that person falls asleep at night, is their identity that of a sage or an ordinary person?

B: If this person hasn't woken up, are they an ordinary person or one who has attained the fruition? What if this person falls into a permanent, deep coma and never wakes up?

A: The eighth consciousness retains the karmic seeds.

B: There are many karmic seeds within the eighth consciousness, including an immense number of extremely heavy hellish karmic seeds. Which karmic seed determines their identity?

A: It is primarily determined by the karmic seed of the consciousness attaining the fruition, which carries the heaviest weight.

B: Although the consciousness has attained the fruition, the manas has not. The manas’ afflictions of greed, hatred, delusion, and ignorance are also significant karmic seeds. Are the manas’ countless hellish karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion stronger than the karmic seed of the consciousness attaining the fruition?

A: ·········

B: At the time of rebirth, the consciousness ceases. It is the manas and the eighth consciousness that undergo rebirth. At that time, is rebirth based on the identity of the consciousness attaining the fruition, or the ordinary identity of the manas?

A: Rebirth is based on the karmic seeds within the eighth consciousness.

B: The manas’ countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion within the eighth consciousness are certainly stronger than the karmic seeds of the consciousness. The dharmas cultivated by the consciousness will not mature because they are too light, whereas the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are extremely heavy. Where will rebirth occur then?

A: The karmic seed of the consciousness attaining the fruition is heavy.

B: The attainment of fruition corresponds to the consciousness, not to the manas. The wisdom of attaining fruition manifests from the consciousness. The manas’ afflictive karmic seeds correspond to the manas, and the karmic actions of afflictions manifest from the manas. At that time, the consciousness ceases and can no longer manifest the wisdom of attaining fruition. However, the manas will manifest afflictive karmic actions of greed, hatred, delusion, and self-view. Where will rebirth occur then?

A: ········

B: If the cultivation of the Buddha Dharma is all done by the consciousness, how much effect can the consciousness still have in the intermediate state (bardo)? In the intermediate state, does the defiled karmic force of the manas have greater effect, or does the power cultivated by the consciousness?

A: Rebirth does not necessarily always pass through the intermediate state. For example, direct descent into hell or ascension to the heavens.

B: Rebirth without passing through the intermediate state occurs only for those who created extremely heavy wholesome or unwholesome karma during their lifetime. Is the wholesome karma of the consciousness attaining fruition greater, or is the defiled, unwholesome karma of the manas not attaining fruition (greed, hatred, delusion) greater? Does attaining fruition through consciousness mean one ascends to the heavens directly without the intermediate state?

A: Cultivating the true Dharma is ultimately beneficial.

B: Although the true Dharma has been cultivated, greed, hatred, delusion, and afflictions are fully present, not reduced at all. The karmic seeds of afflictions are all stored in the eighth consciousness. When afflictive karma manifests in the intermediate state, is rebirth guided by the afflictive karma or by the cultivated Dharma?

A: Rebirth is guided by the wholesome karma of the consciousness attaining fruition.

B: However, after all, the manas has not attained fruition. The greed, hatred, and delusion during life were extremely heavy. The defiled karmic seeds outweigh the karmic seed of the consciousness attaining fruition. Shouldn’t rebirth then be guided by the stronger karma first, resulting in rebirth with the defiled, ordinary identity of the manas?

A: ········

B: To assume presumptuously that simply studying the Buddha Dharma stores karmic seeds, ensuring rebirth in a wholesome realm and escape from the three lower realms, is an extremely biased view. Although everyone cultivates wholesome dharmas, the unwholesome karma within the eighth consciousness remains very heavy. The wholesome dharmas are insufficient to counteract the unwholesome dharmas. Ultimately, the powerful unwholesome dharmas dominate. How then can one avoid the karmic retribution of the three lower realms and be reborn in a wholesome realm? The cultivation by the consciousness, no matter how much, cannot overcome the karmic force of the manas. Only by changing the karmic force of the manas can one be assured of rebirth in a wholesome realm. Karmic force is the force of the manas. If the manas does not attain fruition, the karmic force cannot be changed. One will inevitably follow the defilements of the manas to the three lower realms to undergo retribution. The circumstances at the time of death for countless Buddhists prove this principle.