The Right Understanding of Manas
Chapter 8: The Relationship Between the Manas and Karmic Seeds (2)
Six: How is the cycle of retribution—retaliation begetting retaliation—realized? How is cause and effect realized? Sentient beings have already changed bodies, changed their mind consciousness, changed their first five consciousnesses, and no longer recognize each other—so how are the mind of revenge and cause and effect realized?
Cause and effect is realized through the manas. After sentient beings create karma, the karmic seeds remain stored in the tathāgatagarbha. When the conditions ripen, the tathāgatagarbha outputs the karmic seeds, sentient beings undergo retribution, and cause and effect is realized. The realization of cause and effect—whether it is the fulfillment of a wholesome vow or the fulfillment of an unwholesome vow—cannot be separated not only from the tathāgatagarbha's storing and outputting of the karmic seeds of the vow, but also from the manas' attention (manaskāra) and deliberation (manasikāra). A vow made in a past life exists as a seed stored in the tathāgatagarbha; when the causes and conditions mature, the seed is transmitted out, and one will act in accordance with the past-life vow. And the vow made in a past life was decided by the manas, endorsed by the manas, or even actively issued by the manas itself; this wish belongs to the manas—it is what issued from the depths of the mind.
After the manas has a wish, it will continue to cling to the vow it has already made, no matter how many kalpas pass; the manas will keep clinging to it. When the causes and conditions mature, the tathāgatagarbha will output the karmic seeds. The result is twofold: one is the direct realization of the karmic fruit; the other is alerting the mind consciousness, prompting the six consciousnesses to perform bodily, verbal, and mental actions in accordance with the karmic seeds and the manas' attachments, so that one's behavior becomes different from before or abnormal. Sometimes, when the mind consciousness does something, it does not even know what it is doing—it unknowingly acts according to the manas' wishes; at such times the mind consciousness cannot control itself, and there may even be impulsive manifestations.
A person of cultivation who has made pure great vows will, in another lifetime, unconsciously act according to those vows, sometimes without knowing why they are doing so. If the manas has made unwholesome vows or unwholesome curses, when the conditions mature in some lifetime, the mind consciousness will also unconsciously do these things, sometimes without knowing why it is doing so, often feeling helpless. Sometimes the mind consciousness wants to control itself but cannot, because what controls the mind consciousness is the manas, and the manas' karmic force is something the mind consciousness has no way to escape. If the mind consciousness understands principles, understands the Buddha-dharma, and understands cause and effect, it can analyze things clearly and persuade and educate the manas; the manas may then heed the advice and change its attachments, thereby preventing the occurrence of unwholesome karma and avoiding grave unwholesome consequences.
Therefore, we truly must frequently engage in correct, principled deliberation to influence and guide the manas. The mind consciousness itself must first understand the principles before it can properly influence the manas and rectify the manas' habitual tendencies of ignorance. So what is it that we cultivate in our practice? Of course, the main focus is cultivating the mind consciousness and the manas. Let the mind consciousness come into contact with and be steeped in correct dharma meanings; after understanding the principles, then influence the manas and transform the manas. Once the manas is transformed, our mental conduct will become pure, and the practice will succeed.
Seven: The manas belongs both to the external faculties and to the internal faculties, and is both an external consciousness and an internal consciousness. When it belongs to the internal faculties and internal consciousness, it corresponds to and contacts the inner mental sense-objects (inner dharma-viṣaya) manifested by the tathāgatagarbha at the site of the supreme faculty (indriya), and has coarse discrimination—this is its function as internal faculty and internal consciousness. When it belongs to the external faculties and external consciousness, it has the functions of external faculty and external consciousness, able to contact and discriminate mental sense-objects outside the supreme faculty—that is, the mental sense-objects manifested by the tathāgatagarbha, that portion of mental sense-objects before they enter the supreme faculty, the portion that the mind consciousness cannot reach without supernormal powers—which are contacted and discriminated by the manas.
For example, the body faculty manifested by the tathāgatagarbha can be directly reached by the manas and directly discriminated by it, which is why the manas can make decisions directly regarding the body faculty. The mountains, rivers, and the great earth manifested by the tathāgatagarbha—the material universe, the receptacle-world—before they enter the supreme faculty, can also be reached by the manas, which can have a rough discrimination of them. After its rough discrimination, when these fall into the supreme faculty, if it does not wish to look at material sense-objects, it will not make the decision to look; then the eye consciousness and mind consciousness will not be generated by the tathāgatagarbha with respect to that material sense-object, and that form cannot be seen.
Mental sense-objects that have not fallen into the supreme faculty all belong to external mental sense-objects. For example, the scenes of the land of bliss (sukhāvatī) manifested by the tathāgatagarbha absolutely cannot be discriminated by the mind consciousness unless it is in meditative concentration or in a dream, yet the manas can discriminate these images. Because the manas has made the vow to be reborn in the land of bliss, it will go together with the tathāgatagarbha to the land of bliss to transform and construct the lotus palace; that land of bliss belongs to external mental sense-objects, which the tathāgatagarbha directly reaches, and relying on them the manas can directly grasp and discriminate them. These were created together by the manas and the tathāgatagarbha; those mental sense-objects are all objects reached by the tathāgatagarbha, and are the content grasped and discriminated by the manas.
Whatever the mind consciousness cannot discriminate—mental sense-objects that have not yet fallen into the supreme faculty—all belong to the manas' external entrances (bāhya-āyatana); they are the mental sense-objects the manas takes in from outside the supreme faculty. This includes reaching the people and affairs of past lives, the graves of past lives, the relatives of past lives—all of these, after being manifested by the tathāgatagarbha, are directly reached and directly discriminated by the manas. Then it will give rise to attention (manaskāra) and the mental factor of deliberation (manasikāra) to make decisions and choices.
After the manas decides to take a certain action, these actions cannot be completed with the participation of the six consciousnesses, and bodily, verbal, and mental actions cannot appear, because the six consciousnesses do not correspond to these dharmas. The manas, together with the tathāgatagarbha, directly completes these matters without the six consciousnesses' participation. The tathāgatagarbha, in accordance with the manas, manifests those mental sense-objects; the manas reaches them, then gives rise to attention and the mental factor of deliberation regarding them; the tathāgatagarbha knows this and cooperates in acting together, completing the matter. All of these correspond to the manas and are the content discriminated by the manas.
For some actions, the six consciousnesses need not participate; the seventh and eighth consciousnesses alone can complete them. For example, the arising of the five aggregates is accomplished simultaneously by the seventh and eighth consciousnesses, with no involvement of the six consciousnesses. For example, entering the mother's womb, arising as the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava)—these are all completed through the joint cooperation of the seventh and eighth consciousnesses. Transforming and constructing the lotus, the affairs in the grave, alerting the children of past lives, manifesting the images of past-life relatives—all of these are done by the seventh and eighth consciousnesses together. Those are all mental sense-object images manifested by the tathāgatagarbha; the seventh consciousness, the manas, can reach the past, and after attention, contact, feeling, perception, and deliberation (manasikāra), and after making its decision, the two of them together carry out the operation.
Eight: Question: All information is stored in the tathāgatagarbha, and the manas is the function by which this information can be stored and retrieved. When the manas makes a certain decision based on the mind consciousness's discrimination, the mental conduct and content of this decision become a seed, which is stored into the tathāgatagarbha through the manas (this is the cause); when the various conditions for the realization of the above decision mature (this is the condition), and causes and conditions are complete, the tathāgatagarbha knows this and, in accordance with conditions, brings forth into manifestation the information content (seed) previously stored by the manas. The manas immediately clings to it; after contact, feeling, and perception, the mental factor of deliberation summons the first six consciousnesses to perform bodily, verbal, and mental actions, and all the information of the karma created is again stored into the tathāgatagarbha through the manas in the form of seeds, becoming a new cause, awaiting the ripening of conditions to bear fruit, and so on in cycles. Is it like this?
Answer: It is like this. The seeds of the seven great elements are seeds inherently present in the tathāgatagarbha, not collected from the five aggregates. The karmic seeds of karma created are collected in by the tathāgatagarbha. The tathāgatagarbha both outputs the inherently present seeds of the seven great elements and outputs karmic seeds; the manifestation of karmic seeds relies on the seeds of the seven great elements. After the karmic seeds have fully manifested and the retribution has ended, the karmic seeds disappear and no longer exist.
Whether a matter is important or not belongs to the realm of the six sense-objects; the tathāgatagarbha cannot judge this. Even when the tathāgatagarbha outputs karmic seeds, it does not output them according to the degree of importance of the karmic seeds, but according to the condition of whether the conditions have ripened. If the tathāgatagarbha output karmic seeds according to their degree of importance, the tathāgatagarbha would have selectivity, and would not output karmic seeds in the way that is naturally so (dharmatā); it could make accommodations, and would not be utterly impartial and unswervingly just. Moreover, the tathāgatagarbha cannot discriminate the degree of importance of karmic seeds; the tathāgatagarbha does not know whether a karmic seed is important or not. But for major karmic seeds, karmic conditions ripen easily and are easily transmitted out to realize karmic retribution.
The tathāgatagarbha does not discriminate the importance of karmic seeds, regardless of whether they are major or minor. The urgency and weight of matters are discriminated by the seven consciousnesses; the tathāgatagarbha likewise cannot discriminate them. Otherwise, the tathāgatagarbha would have emotions, afflictions, worldly sentiments, and would have joy, anger, sorrow, and happiness. In reality the tathāgatagarbha does not have these characteristics, does not know the urgency or weight of matters, and does not generate karmic conditions according to their urgency or weight. If the tathāgatagarbha knew the urgency and weight of matters, then the manas could plead with the tathāgatagarbha, asking it to make an accommodation, saying: "My meritorious karma is extremely important; transmit it out for me first, let me get rich first, and afterwards I will certainly reform and return to the right path." Let's see what reaction the tathāgatagarbha would have—this is absolutely not something that can be accommodated; the tathāgatagarbha has no cracks, and nothing can be accommodated.
As for the fact that an arhat's supernormal powers are limited while the Buddha's supernormal powers are immeasurably great, and that there are also some people without supernormal powers—that is because the inherent functions of the seven consciousnesses are limited; it has nothing to do with the tathāgatagarbha, but has to do with the karmic seeds created by the seven consciousnesses. For example, if someone kills a person, although the tathāgatagarbha does not discriminate whether the karma is heavy or light, the impact of this deed itself is great; certainly it is not just one person's tathāgatagarbha storing the karmic seeds—at least two people's tathāgatagarbhas record the karmic seeds. If in the future the killer is to undergo retribution and be killed in turn, the karmic conditions must mature: both people's karmic conditions must ripen, the two people must meet, and the conditions for killing must mature, so that one kills and the other is killed—regardless of whether this karmic seed is important or not. The mental conduct of the manas can cause the conditions for the manifestation of karmic seeds in the tathāgatagarbha to ripen earlier or later; this is entirely achievable. When many people are involved, the emotions are stronger, and each one's manas attachments are heavier, the karmic conditions will be prompted to ripen quickly; but if the causes and conditions are not complete, the karmic fruit still cannot be realized, and one can only wait until the conditions mature.
Nine: How Karmic Seeds Manifest When They Encounter Conditions
Because of ignorance, the manas has a strong tendency to cling; it refuses to be idle and is unwilling to be idle, always wanting to discriminate and fabricate, so there is ignorant restless activity, and accordingly the tathāgatagarbha, following along, manifests the dharmas of the three realms. When the manas is manifest, the five universal mental factors operate along with it, among which the mental factor of deliberation must constantly and continuously deliberate (manasikāra) and take charge as the master, and the tathāgatagarbha will inevitably follow along and cooperate to give birth to the myriad dharmas. When the manas has no ignorance, it still has wishes and vows. For example, the Buddha's manas has extinguished all ignorance, but because the Buddha once made immeasurable pure great vows, relying on these great vows, the Buddha's manas and the manas' mental factors continuously operate; then the Buddha's undefiled consciousness (amala-vijñāna) cooperates, manifesting all the myriad dharmas of the three-realm world, broadly benefiting immeasurable sentient beings. If the manas wants to do nothing, with the first moment of ignorance fully severed and no power of vows, sentient beings cannot live normally; they can only remain for a long time in deep meditative concentration, or enter nirvāṇa without remainder (Anupadhiśeṣa-nirvāṇa), accomplishing nothing.
The tathāgatagarbha, in the way that is naturally so, outputs karmic seeds, realizes the causes, conditions, and effects of sentient beings, and produces all the myriad dharmas of the three-realm world. All karmic seeds are stored in the tathāgatagarbha; the tathāgatagarbha knows when these seeds will ripen, or when they have already ripened, and then it outputs the ripened karmic seeds. In that way, when sentient beings' karmic conditions manifest, it is the time of repaying sentient beings' retribution; when the karmic seeds are output, it is the time of settling karmic debts and realizing karmic retribution, and thus sentient beings' retribution manifests.
Ten: The Manas Is the Driving Force for the Manifestation of All Dharmas of the Three-Realm World
The manas impels the tathāgatagarbha to produce the material universe, the receptacle-world; at the same time, it is also the karmic seeds that impel the tathāgatagarbha to give birth to the receptacle-world, in preparation for the birth and survival of the five aggregates. The manas corresponds to the karmic seeds; the manas represents karma—whether wholesome karma, unwholesome karma, or karma that is neither wholesome nor unwholesome.
The birth of the receptacle-world is a conditioned existence of the three realms, brought about by karmic seeds. When all sentient beings' karmic conditions mature, they impel all tathāgatagarbhas to output the seeds of the four great elements, forming the four great elements; all sentient beings' tathāgatagarbhas together transform and construct the receptacle-world, and only after it is constructed can sentient beings be born. The purposiveness lies in the manas. If the manas has no purpose, the karma of the three-realm world ceases, and one will enter nirvāṇa without remainder like an arhat, and then the three realms will also disappear.
The dharma of the twelve links of dependent origination explains precisely this principle of sentient beings' transmigration: when karmic causes and conditions mature, sentient beings are born; without a receptacle-world, there is no environment for survival, and the conditions for sentient beings' birth are not mature. This condition is also brought about by the manas; the manas is the driving force for the manifestation of all dharmas of the three-realm world.
Eleven: How the Tathāgatagarbha Gives Birth to the Manas Within Nirvāṇa Without Remainder
Because the arhat's manas has completely relinquished all worldly dharmas of the three realms, with no attachment at all and no interest, the manas can only cease when the lifespan ends; the arhat then enters nirvāṇa without remainder, leaving only the tathāgatagarbha. If an arhat is to emerge from the state of nirvāṇa without remainder, there must be karmic seeds of delight in the Mahāyāna dharma stored in the tathāgatagarbha; this is the driving force for the tathāgatagarbha to give birth to the world of the five aggregates. This driving force is the power source that impels the tathāgatagarbha to give birth to the manas, and subsequently to give birth to the world of the five aggregates; this driving force is precisely the karmic seeds stored in the tathāgatagarbha. Because the manas no longer has wishes and attachments toward worldly dharmas, it must have wishes in other respects in order to once again give birth to and impel the arising of the three-realm myriad dharmas of the five-aggregate world; only the yearning for the Mahāyāna dharma and for buddhahood remains—apart from this there are no other wishes or driving forces; the mind is like dead ashes, difficult to rekindle.
When the karmic seeds mature, the tathāgatagarbha can give birth to the manas relying on the karmic seeds. After the manas is born, corresponding to the karmic seeds and karmic force, the manas has the manifestation of attention and the mental factor of deliberation to give birth to worldly dharmas, and the tathāgatagarbha cooperates with the manas to give birth to the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava), in which it then seeks parents to conceive together. Because there are seeds of delight in the Mahāyāna dharma in the tathāgatagarbha, the manas wants to possess a material body; when the manas' mental factor of deliberation arises, the tathāgatagarbha cooperates, and thus the neutrino-body manifests, followed by the birth of the five-aggregate body. After the five-aggregate body is born, one can encounter the Mahāyāna Buddha-dharma, and thus naturally cultivate and study the Mahāyāna dharma. Therefore, before arhats enter nirvāṇa without remainder, the Buddha always teaches them the Mahāyāna dharma, planting for them the seeds of becoming a Buddha.
Twelve: Sentient beings' manas necessarily corresponds to karmic seeds. In the hells, the manas manifests the habitual tendencies of hell beings; among hungry ghosts, sentient beings necessarily manifest the habitual tendencies of hungry ghosts; among animals, sentient beings necessarily manifest the habitual tendencies of animals; among humans there are human habitual tendencies; as devas there are deva habitual tendencies; as asuras there are asura habitual tendencies. Then bodhisattvas have bodhisattva habitual tendencies. Bodhisattvas teach and transform sentient beings for kalpas on end, and necessarily have the habitual tendency of teaching and transforming sentient beings; this habitual tendency of bodhisattvas is a good habitual tendency. When sentient beings correspond to the bodhisattva's habitual tendencies, they are bodhisattvas.
If one spent a long time in a certain destiny in a past life, one has the habitual tendencies of beings of that destiny; upon arriving in other destinies, the manas correspondingly manifests the original habitual tendencies. For example, the Buddha's great disciple Gavāṃpati was an arhat of the fourth fruit; in a past life he was an ox for five hundred lifetimes and had the habitual tendency of rumination; as a human and as an arhat, he still ate like an ox chewing grass. Some people have the habitual tendencies of hungry ghosts because they were hungry ghosts for a long time in past lives; some people have the asura's combative habitual tendencies because they were asuras for a long time in past lives, with very firm anger and habitual anger; even after becoming bodhisattvas, they can still display some of the asura's habitual anger.
Thirteen: If sentient beings were apart from karmic force, and the Buddhas and bodhisattvas were apart from the power of vows, there would be no dharma of the five-aggregate world at all. And both karmic force and the power of vows are related to the manas; apart from the manas, there is also no dharma whatsoever in the world. The tathāgatagarbha alone accomplishes nothing, and does not meddle; it has no desires and seeks nothing, only fulfilling sentient beings' wishes.
Fourteen: Whatever dharmas the tathāgatagarbha can manifest, the manas, relying on the tathāgatagarbha, can all see and discriminate—this is called the manas' silent capacity (to encompass all). After the manas discriminates, if there is attachment, it then gives rise to the mental factor of deliberation, and the tathāgatagarbha, relying on this, further transforms the faculties, the body, the receptacle-world, or the six consciousnesses. All dharmas manifested by the tathāgatagarbha are driven forth from behind by the manas, including the impetus of karmic seeds and karmic force; the manas corresponds to the karmic seeds and karmic force, its mental conduct accords with the karmic seeds, and the karmic seeds were all created at its behest; therefore, in the final analysis, all dharmas are driven forth by the manas.
The material body is also grasped and controlled by the manas—it depends on how great the manas' capacity to control it is. The lifespan of the material body on the one hand involves the issue of karmic seeds, and on the other hand involves the issues of meditative concentration and merit. When there is meditative concentration, the manas' mental power is very great, and the mind consciousness's mental power is also great, and one can transform the body-mind and the world. Meditative concentration also has the merit of concentration and can transform karmic seeds. When the power of concentration is strong, the manas' and mind consciousness's capacity to control the material body is enhanced; the manas can control the material body at will—wanting to die, it dies immediately; wanting to live, it can live another few decades, a few hundred years, or over a thousand years; the lifespan is decided by the manas. Because the karmic seeds have changed and merit has also been cultivated, the manas can then take charge and decide regarding the temporary matter of birth and death.
Fifteen: Generally, we are born already possessing a certain amount of merit; our destiny of wealth and honor is already determined in the mother's womb, and after birth we begin to enjoy blessings, or begin to enjoy blessings at a certain period. This is the merit brought along by the seventh consciousness, the manas; the seeds are stored in the tathāgatagarbha, and the manas corresponds to the seeds. The mind consciousness is born after conception, not carried over from past lives, and in the mother's womb and in youth it has not accumulated blessings, so the mind consciousness does not possess merit, but it can enjoy merit. The merit and wisdom one is born with are all brought along by the manas, to be enjoyed by the mind consciousness. In this life, the mind consciousness cooperates with the manas to cultivate blessings and wisdom again; when the karmic seeds mature, one receives the wholesome retribution of blessings and wisdom in this life; when the karmic seeds do not mature, the mind consciousness of future lives enjoys the retributive fruit of blessings and wisdom.
By the same token, the destiny of being born without blessings or wisdom is also brought along by the manas; the manas corresponds to the seeds of meager merit (alpa-puṇya), and the destiny is one of poverty and lowliness, with profound suffering; the retribution is borne by the mind consciousness. If in this life the mind consciousness again cooperates with the manas to create unwholesome karma, when the karmic seeds mature, the mind consciousness of this life receives the unwholesome retribution; when the karmic seeds do not mature, the mind consciousness of future lives receives the unwholesome retribution.
Sixteen: A person with supernormal powers can know things that will happen in future lives; the karmic seeds of things that will appear in future lives certainly have not yet matured. The tathāgatagarbha certainly can discriminate karmic seeds that have not yet matured; the key is whether the manas can discriminate these equally unripe karmic seeds. If the manas cannot discriminate mature and immature karmic seeds, then how does the mind consciousness know of things in future lives that have not yet appeared, and of things that happened many kalpas ago? How does the mind consciousness's recollection of past lives (pūrvanivāsānusmṛti) manifest? All dharmas known by the mind consciousness are first contacted, first known, and first perceived by the manas, and only then does it give rise to attention for the mind consciousness to discriminate in detail; only then can the mind consciousness know the dharmas contacted and known by the manas. The mind consciousness's recollection of past lives, as well as the mind consciousness's knowing in dreams of things that will happen in the future, all come from the manas, known through being drawn by the manas. Therefore it is said that the manas can contact and know things that have not yet happened and things of future lives; this is the manas making its own discrimination relying on the tathāgatagarbha's discrimination of karmic seeds.
There are many examples of the mind consciousness knowing in advance of things that are about to happen. For example, before an earthquake, some animals know in advance and, upon knowing, display restlessness and agitation. The earthquake has not yet occurred, and the karmic seeds have not yet matured and manifested—or the karmic seeds have not yet fully manifested—so how do the animals' mind consciousnesses know that a disaster is about to occur and become panic-stricken? If the manas did not, along with the tathāgatagarbha, reach the karmic seeds, how could the mind consciousness reach the karmic seeds? Before a person is about to die, or just before an accident occurs, there are premonitions. The event has not happened and the karmic seeds have not manifested—why can there be a premonition? If the manas does not reach the karmic seeds, why does the mind consciousness have a feeling? In dreams, one dreams of things that will happen days or months later, and upon waking feels that something special is about to happen. If the manas did not reach the karmic seeds, how could there be precognitive dreams? These future matters are all first perceived by the manas, which then alerts the mind consciousness to perceive them, so as to adopt countermeasures.
Seventeen: The number of seeds of the seven great elements is fixed and unvarying, though they cannot be counted. The tathāgatagarbha uses these many fixed seeds to transform and give birth to all dharmas; when a dharma ceases, the seeds all return to the tathāgatagarbha, and then arise in other dharmas, transforming and giving birth to other dharmas. The seeds, at the level of dharmas, arise and cease back again in each instant; all dharmas arise, cease, and change in each instant, and are not everlasting and unchanging; therefore they are impermanent.
The manas corresponds to karmic seeds, but the manas' wisdom need not be retrieved by manifesting into the seeds; wisdom is always corresponding with the manas, meaning the manas always has wisdom. For example, once we have learned to cook, at any time in this life when we encounter the conditions for cooking, we can cook; this skill the manas always carries. The dharmas the manas has been steeped in always remain in the mind; it always understands them, so its wisdom is always carried along, without needing to specially retrieve seeds from the tathāgatagarbha, yet it is always corresponding with the seeds.
Eighteen: Karmic force, as the name implies, is the force of karmic actions. This force is very great; most sentient beings find it hard to withstand it and can only drift along with the karmic force, unable to extricate themselves. This force is the force of the manas; the manas represents karma. The manas has power because it is the consciousness that takes charge as master and can do as it pleases; at many times the mind consciousness cannot withstand it. Moreover, behind it the tathāgatagarbha uniformly complies with the manas, releasing the seeds of karmic force; then sentient beings can only struggle bitterly within karmic force, bobbing up and down in the ocean of saṃsāra and karma. This relies on the mind consciousness cultivating and studying wholesome dharmas, continuously accumulating strength, in order to guide and counteract the manas' karmic force; the karmic force can only be slowly turned around, with unwholesome retribution gradually lightening and wholesome retribution gradually strengthening.
All dharmas manifest in the mind by relying on karmic force. Even when sentient beings come into contact with the same external six sense-objects, because their karmic forces differ, the inner six sense-objects transmitted by each one's tathāgatagarbha into the supreme faculty differ, the influence each sentient being receives differs, and the perception and feeling of the same realm differ. The most famous example is that devas, humans, and hungry ghosts see the same river: the external object-aspect (nimitta) is the same, but the internal object-aspects they see differ, and their enjoyments differ.
