A Dialogue on Attaining the Fruit

A: Attaining the fruit and seeing the mind only requires the mind consciousness to realize it; it is not necessary for the manas to realize it at the same time.

B: After the mind consciousness attains the fruit and becomes a sage, when one falls asleep at night, is one in the identity of a sage or of an ordinary person?

B: If this person has not woken up, is he an ordinary person or one who has attained the fruit? What if this person remains in a deep coma and never wakes up?

A: The eighth consciousness retains the dharma-seeds.

B: But there are many dharma-seeds in the eighth consciousness, and there are also extremely numerous and extremely heavy karmic seeds of the hells—which karmic seed determines his identity?

A: The karmic seed of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit, being heavier, takes precedence.

B: Although the mind consciousness has attained the fruit, the manas has not attained the fruit; the manas's afflictions of greed, hatred, delusion, and ignorance are also major karmic seeds. Are the manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion leading to the hells not stronger than the karmic seed of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit?

A: ·········

B: At the time of conception, the mind consciousness has ceased, and it is the manas and the eighth consciousness that enter the womb. At this point, does one enter the womb in the identity of the mind consciousness having attained the fruit, or in the identity of the manas as an ordinary person?

A: One enters the womb according to the karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness.

B: In the eighth consciousness, the manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion afflictions are certainly stronger than the mind consciousness's karmic seeds. The dharmas cultivated by the mind consciousness through habituation will not ripen, because they are too light, whereas the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are very heavy. Where will one then enter the womb?

A: The karmic seed of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit is heavy.

B: The mind consciousness attaining the fruit corresponds to the mind consciousness, not to the manas; the wisdom of attaining the fruit is manifested by the mind consciousness, while the manas's afflictive karmic seeds correspond to the manas, and the afflictive karmic actions are manifested by the manas. At this point the mind consciousness has ceased and can no longer manifest the wisdom of attaining the fruit, whereas the manas will manifest the afflictive karmic actions of greed, hatred, delusion, and the view of self. Where will one then enter the womb?

A: ········

B: If the habituation of the Buddha-dharma is all done by the mind consciousness, how great a role can the mind consciousness still play in the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava)? In the neutrino-body, is the manas's defiled karmic force stronger, or the force of the dharmas habituated by the mind consciousness?

A: Not everyone must pass through the neutrino-body at conception; for example, those who go directly to the hells or ascend to the heavens.

B: Those who conceive without passing through the neutrino-body have all created major wholesome or unwholesome karma before death. Is the wholesome karma of sentient beings' mind consciousness attaining the fruit greater, or the defiled karma of greed, hatred, and delusion of the manas that has not attained the fruit? Does attaining the fruit by the mind consciousness really allow one to ascend to the heavens directly without a neutrino-body?

A: Habituation to the true Dharma is ultimately useful.

B: Although one has habituated to the true Dharma, one's afflictions of greed, hatred, and delusion are complete and not severed in the slightest; all the afflictive karmic seeds remain stored in the eighth consciousness. When the afflictive karma manifests in the neutrino-body, does one enter the womb following the afflictive karma, or following the habituated dharmas?

A: One enters the womb following the wholesome karma of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit.

B: But after all, the manas has not attained the fruit; one's greed, hatred, and delusion before death were very heavy, and the defiled karmic seeds are greater than the karmic seed of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit. At this point, shouldn't the stronger karma lead first, so that one enters the womb in the identity of the manas as a defiled ordinary person?

A: ·······

B: If one takes for granted that as long as one has studied the Buddha-dharma, one has stored karmic seeds and will therefore be reborn in wholesome destinies and depart from the three evil destinies, this is an extremely biased and stubborn notion. Although everyone has habituated wholesome dharmas, the unwholesome karma in the eighth consciousness is still very heavy, and the wholesome dharmas are insufficient to counteract the unwholesome dharmas; in the end the powerful unwholesome dharmas still occupy the dominant position. How then can one avoid the retribution of the three evil destinies and be reborn in wholesome destinies? No matter what, the habituation of the mind consciousness cannot withstand the karmic force of the manas. Only by changing the karmic force of the manas can one be assured of rebirth in wholesome destinies. Karmic force is precisely the force of the manas; if the manas has not attained the fruit, the karmic force cannot be changed, and one will inevitably follow the manas's defilements to the three evil destinies to receive retribution. The circumstances at the time of death of countless Buddhist practitioners prove this principle.